नीचे दिया गया चर्चा का आलेख एआई (A.I.) द्वारा अंग्रेजी में अनुवादित किया गया है।
Dr. Pauranik: Shri Kamleshwar, an eminent name in the history of Hindi literature for roughly the last half-century. A leading figure in the Hindi story tradition, Shri Kamleshwar also makes creative interventions in the fields of electronic media and journalism. Through his leadership and his writing, he has promoted Dalit and parallel traditions in Hindi literature. Such a prominent, leading litterateur, the respected Shri Kamleshwar ji, is present with us today in the studios of Doordarshan Indore. We welcome you. Namaste!
Dr. Pauranik: Kamleshwar ji.
Kamleshwarji: Yes.
Dr. Pauranik: When you began your writing journey, you were initially recognized as a storyteller and litterateur coming from small towns, and you gave space to the sensibilities of those places in your works. Going back to that background, would you like to briefly shed light on your subsequent development and contributions?
Kamleshwarji: Doctor Sahab! The thing about small towns (kasbas) and writing from them is that, most importantly, it was the time immediately after independence. Firstly, there was so much displacement due to Partition, whether from across the border…
Dr. Pauranik: …or within it…
Kamleshwarji: …or within it. Particularly because, right after independence, from the villages of our agricultural culture, there was – I wouldn’t say displacement, but an exodus (nishkraman). When this exodus happened, many people could reach the cities, but many couldn’t, so they stopped somewhere in the small towns. These towns were like inns (sarais) for them. Some people who failed in the city or got weary of it would return to the small town. Some who were moving forward would pause in the town before proceeding. So, I felt that this was a period of very significant transition.
Dr. Pauranik: Yes.
Kamleshwarji: The reality that existed then… and that’s why I felt it would be better to capture the reality there. And as that reality evolved, I certainly felt that it needed a larger canvas, such a vast canvas that encompassed the question of a world based on equality, equity, and justice. Especially seeing the way Marathi Dalit literature emerged at that time, I felt that this too was a kind of mental and spiritual transition.
Dr. Pauranik: Yes.
Kamleshwarji: They desired this, and their desire was quite justified. In fact, it wasn’t a matter of anyone granting it; they were entitled to this justice.
Dr. Pauranik: Entitled.
Kamleshwarji: Right? So, in that situation, it seemed to me that whether it was Dalit literature, literature presenting Indian reality, or literature from the small town – some people conveniently divided it into town, city, village, but there was no need for that. It was, in a way, a profound Indian experience.
Dr. Pauranik: Yes. And the ‘Nai Kahani’ (New Story) movement that happened, do you see it connected to this, or do you think giving it that name was appropriate?
Kamleshwarji: I believe giving it a name doesn’t cause any harm, especially because movements definitely make people more alert. There are various kinds of readers: some read and understand, some take what they want from it, some observe how literature or writing is reflecting the changing values of society, who literature stands with, what it wants to talk about. In that context, I felt that the story we had just before independence… if you recall, Doctor Sahab, at that time, when we were students, we used to be asked, “Through this particular work of the author, tell us what the author’s philosophy of life (jeevan darshan) is?” Meaning, the characters and situations were created by the author, so one searched for his philosophy of life, what he was thinking. For example, I say this with great respect for our seniors like Jainendra ji, Agyeya ji… with Jainendra ji, the question was how Gandhism was connected, right? Or even with Premchand ji, one had to append ‘idealistic realism’ (Adarshonmukh Yatharthvad). What I mean is, why are you searching for the author’s philosophy of life? The characters are drawn from their time. So, you should be looking for the philosophy of life of your time. That’s why I felt the transition marked by Nai Kahani was an important one
Dr. Pauranik: And now, after these three-four, five decades, do you feel that that movement, or whatever process of social change it was, which was reflected in your literature and that of your contemporaries, how successful or meaningful has it been in its objectives or goals, and what stage has it reached now
Kamleshwarji: I think it was a process of thought. And that’s why I always believed that while Nai Kahani (New Story) is fine in its place, unless the ‘new’ continuously transforms, it cannot remain new. So, the condition for being new is continuous transformation. And therefore, I feel that the progress story has made in the last five or four decades has been in such vast areas. It has generated so much vocabulary, brought in words from our dialects, words from Indian languages… even, as you mentioned, the Samantar (Parallel) movement – ‘Samantar’ itself is a Marathi word; in Hindi, it’s ‘Samanantar’ (Parallel), right? My point is, the way language refines itself… and when language undergoes this refinement, it definitely brings the sensibilities and urges (samveg aur aaveg) of its time and seeks to establish its truth.
Dr. Pauranik: Yes.
Kamleshwarji: And the form I see now, I find it very, well, pleasant for me. Such development, such diverse knowledge, such deep insights.
Dr. Pauranik: Yes.
Kamleshwarji: Into the soul, human destiny, human aspirations for justice, human dreams.
Dr. Pauranik: Yes.
Kamleshwarji: If the story has achieved this, I think it’s a very big, a very significant achievement
Dr. Pauranik: I admire your satisfaction and optimism, especially when we often hear rather pessimistic reviews or criticisms regarding the perspective of literature, and even in a broader context, many thinkers feel distressed about the current state of the Hindi language and other Indian languages.
Kamleshwarji: Yes, yes.
Dr. Pauranik: The way a neo-imperialist form of English is increasingly dominating us, and now with the advent of the internet, its penetration has become even deeper. This pressure has been felt not only by Hindi but also by other Indian languages, Asian languages, and even other European languages. Considering this situation, how do you view the future of the Hindi language, both in literature and beyond, and how do you see its current state?
Kamleshwarji: Doctor Sahab! I believe a huge cyclone has arrived. And when a cyclone hits, it definitely takes away some of your land, damages some of your trees, destroys some settlements, takes some lives. So, this cyclone is a very powerful, what should I say, economic cyclone. It’s not primarily a linguistic cyclone; fundamentally, it’s an economic one. And the economic polarization of the world that has happened, which has defined global marketism… yes, from that, one thing emerges very clearly: whatever capital comes, let’s talk about economics first, then language. If that capital is not drenched in human sweat and blood, then it can create something pure. The purity of capital, as Gandhiji said about means and ends…
Dr. Pauranik: Both are important.
Kamleshwarji: Both are important. So, in that sense, when capital itself arrives, steeped in sin, exploitation, sin, blood – what will it do? It will only suck blood, won’t it? So, in this situation, let’s turn to language. Now, the language they have developed, whether it’s the language of the internet or the kind of abbreviations… right? I’ll tell you, just five or seven days ago, a well-educated young man, about 18, was reading an English financial newspaper. He said, “I don’t understand it at all.” I asked, “What happened?” He said, “Its terms have changed so much that unless I study commerce, I can’t understand them.” So, this difficulty with language has also arisen partly due to fashion here. For instance, in Hindi now, whatever comes in English is immediately written in Devanagari script.
Dr. Pauranik: Artificial translation.
Kamleshwarji: Artificial… it’s happening in other Indian languages too. And this happens to some extent; I don’t think there’s a need to panic about it. Consider that once, even on Doordarshan – I won’t name the channel – ‘Hinglish’ emerged. Hindi and English mixed. But where is it today?
Dr. Pauranik: You think it has reduced?
Kamleshwarji: Where is it compared to then? Today, they don’t have that language; they have to speak in Hindi. Similarly, look at the channels in our other languages. Even there, unless you talk about your culture and your soul through your own language, how long will this culture last? How long will this Hinglish, or this culture of English abbreviations, last? How long will you dance in discos? How long will you sit on the internet gathering information about other countries? Right? Even your own pronunciations, if you download them from the internet, you have to re-understand what is being said. Anyway, I feel that these things are now moving from electronic media to print media as well. Okay. Now, look at this in two ways. One way is to see that it has polluted our languages, including Hindi and other Indian languages. The other way is to see that English cannot function without our Indian languages and Hindi. You can look at it both ways.
Dr. Pauranik: But as you used the word ‘pollution’, on the other hand, Kabir says, “Bhasha behta neer hai” (Language is flowing water), criticizing Sanskrit as stagnant water. Languages are bound to change.
Kamleshwarji: Yes, yes.
Dr. Pauranik: So why do we get so worried or upset about it? And should we really be upset? And does our being upset make any difference?
Kamleshwarji: Doctor Sahab, I am not upset at all. I’m not upset because the most important thing is the communication facilities we’ve got, the means and tools of communication technology has given us. We will use them. There was a very powerful theory back then; Marshall McLuhan used to say, ‘The medium is the message’. Even then, when I worked in electronic media, I used to think, ‘The machine can never be the message’, ‘The man behind the machine is going to be the message’. How can you work without the individual? Right now, you and I are sitting here. How many people are present on our floor? How many in the control room? ‘They are the men behind the machine’. That’s why you and I are face to face. Right! So, sometimes it happens, right, that catchy phrases are coined. I don’t think any harm will come from this. Rather, it is certain that humans cannot live without their culture, and culture is derived from one’s own language. Yes.
Dr. Pauranik: But then another doubt arises in my mind. You were associated with a prestigious magazine like ‘Sarika’, brought it to such heights. That was an era, and we still remember it with nostalgia. There were other prestigious magazines at that time too. One by one, they shut down. We feel a bit disheartened about the new ones that have taken their place. What is your opinion on this scenario?
Kamleshwarji: I feel that this wave of marketism that has hit us… now editors are no longer needed; managing editors are required. So, in this wave, the most significant thing is that after the freedom struggle, the vision of change conceived by all our national leaders or our social leaders – be it social change, literary change, cultural change, or political change – at that time, these magazines were certainly playing a role in a very significant transformation. But after that, Doctor Sahab, what happened is that the institutions that published these magazines, in their pursuit of profit over contributing to change, felt, “What is the need for them now?” No need at all. And thus, gradually, all language magazines, especially important Hindi magazines, closed down. And this is a very sad chapter in the field of Hindi.
Dr. Pauranik: Do you think that perhaps due to this very marketism, something good might happen in the future? If something becomes economically viable and can also become a vehicle for public interest, could such a combination occur?
Kamleshwarji: Definitely. It will have to happen, Doctor Sahab. The reason is that when you exploit – for profit, which is why you closed magazines, because advertising is scarce or you don’t get the desired rates for language publications – the difficulty is that until now, you have been trying to extract money from the middle-order institutions, right, from whom you can get more money. Right? But ultimately, you have to reach the common person. In such a situation, the conditions for profit will eventually saturate. And when they saturate, you will realize what a huge loss you have inflicted upon yourself. Therefore, I feel that this kind of journalism, these kinds of magazines, and others… otherwise, it’s not necessary that only large institutions publish journals. Right? Small efforts can continue. The history of Hindi little magazines is such a vast history. I feel that the history written by magazines that constantly close down and then constantly re-emerge is a history that the big magazines haven’t written.
Dr. Pauranik: Yes. Returning once again to another genre of literature, the novel. It has been considered that this was not part of our old literary traditions in Hindi and other Indian languages or Sanskrit, but a genre that came from the West.
Kamleshwarji: Yes.
Dr. Pauranik: But in the last one or two decades, a lot of work is being done on the novel in Hindi. What are your thoughts on this situation?
Kamleshwarji: I think this is also a very significant scenario present in Hindi today. What has happened is that, certainly, somewhere – if I look at it from the perspective of where the linguistic and where our spiritual and internal transformations, the visions, the dreams were… I use the word ‘dream’ repeatedly because today this word is not heard. Poverty is not heard, exploitation is not heard, though it is seen. Right? So, the fundamental truths of our place, a curtain was drawn over those fundamental truths. We were told that the Indian middle class today is so economically prosperous that it’s larger than the middle classes of France, Germany, and Japan combined. Our middle class goes to Singapore and spends more than the middle classes of many other countries. My point is, this vision of affluence that was created… well, affluence existed even back when the Manusmriti’s Varna system was implemented here. After all, some people did have affluence. So, what I mean is, until these things are linked with human justice, they have no meaning. And in that respect, I feel that the novel too… okay, sometimes things like aestheticism appear in our work too, that’s fine. At least they refine language and words, so we get better words. But that aesthetic writing, which you could also call literary-ism or traditionalism, which was earlier called ‘for one’s own pleasure’ (Swantah Sukhay), right? When this kind of writing appears, there’s no need to worry about it either. At least we get refinement of words, they bring out some more good words. But you cannot neglect, you cannot deny the reality of your time. And the novel has continuously presented that truth.
Dr. Pauranik: Yes.
Kamleshwarji: Yes.
Dr. Pauranik: One of your novels that was much discussed in recent times, ‘Kitne Pakistan’ (How Many Pakistans)…
Kamleshwarji: Yes.
Dr. Pauranik: …perhaps points towards or highlights the fact that humans or many societies often suffer from an identity crisis.
Kamleshwarji: Yes.
Dr. Pauranik: In search of their identity, they keep looking for various definitions, various bases. Sometimes this basis is caste/community (jatiyata), sometimes nationality, sometimes religion or sect or creed or language or skin colour. So these divisive tendencies, where we start identifying ourselves by dividing into smaller and smaller fragments, instead of seeing ourselves immersed in some larger collective whole… yes. So this conflict, moving in two opposite directions, which one do you find more praiseworthy? I don’t know if you’d want to give a value judgment or not, but still, what is your own opinion? And in the time to come, which way do you perceive it moving?
Kamleshwarji: Look, Doctor Sahab! Regarding writing ‘Kitne Pakistan’, firstly, I had to pause many times, think, read, then meet people informally – you don’t go to meet people with a pen and pencil to write a novel; there’s a computer in the mind, so it keeps running. So, I felt that the constant disintegration and struggle for dominance within civilizations, the force that persisted… due to that force, certainly, what you call humanity itself wasn’t whole. Rather, some people considered themselves synonymous with humanity and created situations that were definitely not in the interest of humankind. Anyway, after civilizations, if you come to history, even if you look at history, this kind of exclusive divisionism based on one’s own dominance, which is ongoing, somehow goes against the entirety of humanity – not just the people of India, but everyone. And in such a situation, I felt that – well, everything here comes from the West, so it gets accepted immediately after a slight delay – the Huntington’s ‘Clash of Civilizations’ theory and idea that came… I think it was a very, what should I say, dangerous theory. It was dangerous because it came at a time when humanity and the entire East… right… seemed committed to the vision of a just co-existence of religions, castes, communities. At such a time, you bring forth a theory of the clash of civilizations? No. So, in this situation, I feel that through this novel, and not just this novel, I think some very good Hindi writers have addressed these questions. Perhaps I tried to look at it in a broader context of civilizations and history, but they have tried to see it within their own specific communities (jatiyata). The small ethnic/caste-based groups that formed… now they want to break out, shattering many things. You won’t find anywhere that any character, any major character – like, take Manmohan Pathak’s novel ‘Gagan Ghata Gahrani’ (I’m mentioning this because this name will likely never be mentioned as people don’t read much these days, this poet… especially writers don’t read). So, in that context, I feel if you take his characters, anywhere… while breathing within their regional or communal identity, they are now feeling suffocated. Right? Therefore, the novel is creating the need for a vast human canvas. This, I feel, is a very positive aspect of today’s thinking.
Dr. Pauranik: But if the diversity of identity decreases and we all become homogenized or uniform, won’t our lives become a bit dull?
Kamleshwarji: Doctor Sahab, this is not uniformity; I feel this is another version of diversity.
Dr. Pauranik: Yes.
Kamleshwarji: Yes. Because nowhere has literature thought of restricting humans. But humans, if suppose they are sitting by the riverbank, they won’t sit by the riverbank 24 hours a day, right? Or, the changing world… there was a time when if a tamarind tree or a mango tree was cut down and a petrol pump was installed, right, people would become so nostalgic. “Oh sir, our tamarind tree, our mango tree…” No. And now look, with all the processes of change that are happening, literature is continuously connecting humans with them. Remember a time when a telegram arrived? A wire came…
Dr. Pauranik: People would get scared.
Kamleshwarji: And crying and wailing would start in the neighborhood, even in the house whose telegram it wasn’t! Then, how did that telegram become a part of your life? It was literature that did it, right? The wires strung along the railway lines, upon which birds sat, right? And some humming sound could be heard in those telegraph poles. When you connected that with music and rhythm in life… right? When windows changed from wood to iron, and you connected with the sound of iron, of steel – that’s when people’s inner sensibilities and emotions change.
Dr. Pauranik: Literature is a vehicle of change.
Kamleshwarji: Definitely. Yes, yes, yes.
Dr. Pauranik: One more thing, returning to electronic media. Your association with it has been so extensive. A concern has been expressed that there is an overload of information.
Kamleshwarji: Yes, yes.
Dr. Pauranik: On one hand, it has benefited us and society by removing the scarcity of information we had. But today, is there such an abundance of information that the truth gets lost behind it somewhere? Don’t you feel so?
Kamleshwarji: No, I don’t feel so, Doctor Sahab! There is indeed a lot of abundance, no doubt. But within this abundance, there is a lot of repetition.
Dr. Pauranik: Yes.
Kamleshwarji: Mostly, if you look, it’s the same thing, same thing, same thing. Meaning, if you read one newspaper, then there’s no need for another newspaper, or if you watch one channel, then there’s no need for another channel. Maybe one or two exclusive stories dug up from here or there, that’s a different matter. So, in this sense, this abundance of information and knowledge, I feel it should be allowed to reach wherever it is needed, in our interiors, in those regions and states. I myself remember an era of electronic media when we used to do the program ‘Chaupal’ for our rural brethren on Doordarshan. Our viewers seeking entertainment used to get very annoyed, very. But look, Doctor Sahab, where did the Green Revolution come from? That entertainment-seeking middle class did not bring about the Green Revolution. No. So, my point is, information is a human right. And this century has shown that.
Dr. Pauranik: And that need has not yet been fulfilled.
Kamleshwarji: Not fulfilled.
Dr. Pauranik: There is a great need.
Kamleshwarji: A great need. It is not reaching where it should reach.
Dr. Pauranik: And one more question, perhaps I’ll take it at the end. In different eras, in different countries, thinkers are often worried that values are eroding.
Kamleshwarji: Yes.
Dr. Pauranik: And they feel that only their time is such when the crisis of values has increased; perhaps everything was good before. Do you also feel this way?
Kamleshwarji: Look, the crisis of values persists continuously in any developing, transitioning, changing society. When this transition of values continues, values always seem to be disintegrating, deteriorating, causing great annoyance – “Oh sir, this is getting ruined, this is getting ruined, this is getting ruined,” it happens like that. But out of that very process, something so creative emerges. Someone once asked me abroad, they said, “Your young generation has completely changed; how can we recognize an Indian?” So I told them, “If you truly want to recognize an Indian, try to recognize them when they turn 28.”
Dr. Pauranik: 28?
Kamleshwarji: 28, yes. Because before that, our own family institution gives its children a lot of freedom. After 28, you start seeing an Indian in the making. Around 28, I mean, not just 28.
Dr. Pauranik: Yes.
Kamleshwarji: The second most important thing, Doctor Sahab, is that this crisis of values is not such a huge crisis. Globalization and this ‘bhumandalikaran’ that is arriving, its ultimate conflict or clash is going to be with agricultural civilizations.
Dr. Pauranik: Yes.
Kamleshwarji: And our folk cultures and the folk capital (lok punji) we possess, only they can counter it.
Dr. Pauranik: Those will remain our imperishable treasures.
Kamleshwarji: Yes.
Dr. Pauranik: And that is our greatest strength.
Kamleshwarji: Yes.
Dr. Pauranik: And if thinkers like you, litterateurs like you, keep alerting society to these concerns, keep cautioning society through your optimistic yet concerned reactions, and if the kind of progress happening at the level of thought, ideas, and writing in our Hindi literature continues to be encouraged under your leadership, the leadership of your contemporaries, the leadership of your disciples – this is a very pleasant feeling for us. Thank you very much for coming to the Doordarshan Indore studio and discussing with us. Much gratitude, many thanks.
We hope our viewers will find this discussion interesting, thought-provoking, and certainly useful in some ways.
Once again, many thanks.
Kamleshwarji: I am grateful to you.
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